I would not think so. Shelly was added before any “political button” (which I haven’t seen yet because I don’t use Shelly), so what? Would the Cachy team have to remove Shelly because its dev supports other people in their right to a self-determined life?
If there is any reason to ditch Shelly from a distro’s perspective, it might be when it messes things up. I’m not saying it does, because as I already said: I’m not using it (because it is a very new kid on the block and I commonly mistrust New Kids on the Block, probably due to my 90s socialization )
A message that was added by a member of the Cachy team if you look at the commit history.
Code is politics. GPL and other copyleft code most of all. Cachy wouldn’t exist if not for generations of developers putting politics in their code in a much more “assertive” manner.
So clearly you don’t "really* have a problem with “politics in code”.
I don’t really think that welcoming and celebrating a diverse group of people as people should be seen as a particularly political message. It’s more like just being a decent neighbor and community.
Hold on, let’s keep the arguments tight… he wants simplicity… and I’m all in favour of that.
Let’s also not forget to dis-engage pamac from pamac-gtk or pamac-gtk3, because there are numerous reports that the GUI can crash (though the update is still performed in the background), so there’s one difference.
Pamac is a project which has some issues, and hopefully will get more attention before too long.
The benchmark here is:
Open a terminal
run cachyupdate
There’s another issue here… this ‘tech savvy’ user likes to ‘avoid using the shell’. That’s a classic conflation that has no part in a technical discussion… it’s fuzzy and just smells like ‘I don’t give a shit’ but ‘I’ll still comment anyway’.
Well Newsflash:
The shell (bash, zsh, fish is NOT the terminal - the ‘terminal’ is just a window through which you can type commands into the shell.
The shell interprets commands, runs other programs and manages i/o etc. Just that statement (despite considering themself somehow proficient) reveals a profound level of technical ignorance… which would be easily overcome by spending more than a few minutes in the forum learning. Certainly such matters are explained as they arise in the Manjaro forum.
Clicking on the GUI is using a shell, just indirectly (with an extra layer of complexity).
It is completely impossible to avoid the shell - pamac GUI runs pacman commands in the shell.
So really, the only valid argument I find in favour of the GUI is that pamac-gtk lets you type in a word (like Plex) and it will search all available options from repositories, AUR, Flathub and optionally Snaps.
This argument is flawed, though, because I still maintain that the web browser is the best tool for that job.
Risk is minimal using the terminal with official tools, not so with pamac-gtk
Community consensus is overwhelmingly against GUI not least because the command line has the most power and flexibility.
As a Manjaro user, unless a complete noob, it should be extremely trivial to understand the vital importance of being specific as to the exact tool being referred to, and it does seem to me that this user doesn’t understand that ‘pamac’ isn’t actually a GUI tool, and that the GUI has several versions which have been reported to be unreliable… so that, at best, pamac use is recommended limited to aur updates (sudo pacman -Syu && pamac --aur would do it…).
One final thing - can ANYONE tell me how the LEFT compares to the RIGHT as a superior option to review pkgbuilds, and also tell me - how would they edit that pkgbuild if necessary in that interface?
Would you object to a ‘Seasons Greetings’ banner in late December?
Do you also oppose the Ukraine colors in Vim?
Hmmm by name-checking Vim’s Ukraine support neutrally, but calling the Pride message “political” the objection seems to reveal it’s selective predjudicial target.
Opposition to Pride specifically correlates very strongly with anti-LGBTQ+ positions, which (in Western politics) aligns with the far-right.
The same also applies to pro-Ukraine messaging.
So, the best way to keep strong politics out of the forum is for these objectors to Shut the F#$K up.
If you want to discuss this then please PM me, I have no desire to be banned from this forum, but to be clear:
I do not “oppose” anything a developer wants to put into their code (I also develop code albeit in a modest way); I have wishes about what I want and do not want to see in my apps and I was just guessing at what the OP meant because I happened to notice it myself.
I am not taking any position on any movement, that is not appropriate here.
No, I suggest just relaxing - we see a couple of mild and inoffensive messages being given a fairly prominent position - whilst not interfering with the software at all.
It’s a strong tradition in open-source, and whilst I’m not really suggesting that you have strong views about the contents or specific messages I think it very often comes across that way when objections are raised.
So I’m partly playing devils advocate here. I often find Pride to be overly loud and invasive, as a primarily American but I will tolerate it.
I do have discomfort related to any performative public behaviour (and to some extent this would apply to my software, which is released publicly) also.
My objection to Pride has nothing to do with LGBTQ+, but about the style of expression… and that’s a valid personal (not political) preference.
We might also note that Pride does not represent LGBTQ+, but actually a subset of that community. But what’s undeniable is that in this case, the performance isn’t frivolous… when I think about it, it strikes me as being necessity in a world that still punishes quiet, everyday queerness.
I think there’s no fear of that, as you made your stance clearly a-politically (and it is a matter of moderation to decide what is acceptable - and remember, this ‘push’ came from the CachyOS Team…).
I would like to illustrate this with the images. It is well-organized, clearly displays dependencies—including optional ones—up front; you can view the installed files along with their paths; you can edit the PKGBUILD of an AUR program before building it; and during installation, you are asked whether you wish to install optional dependencies.
Thank you for explaining the difference between a shell and a terminal to me. I was aware that there are various shells—to which one issues commands via the same program (the terminal)—but I hadn’t really delved into the specific terminology. However, I am always eager to learn something new.
Incidentally, I would never describe myself as competent; I have learned a great deal over the years, and I am quite capable of gauging just how little I actually know.
Sorry, I was a bit harsh - and for sure I think it was a while before I really understood the difference… I need to read more carefully.
I had also missed that pamac also uses ALPM directly (like Shelly)… though the jury is out whether this is (in practice) a benefit or not.
Pacman is basically the front-end to the ALPM library which is designed to serve pacman.
Currently, pacman has built up years of fixes for ‘edge cases’ which pamac and Shelly have not… which is one reason people prefer Octopi, because that is just a wrapper for the preferred tool (pacman).
(I’d merely suggest a note here, as a brand new, incompetent Linux user myself… Terminal is still a possibility, just not the only one
I’ve started mostly using the Cachy GUI, all to slowly slip more and more towards their equivalent terminal commands. My first formats were done with KDE Partition Manager (GUI), which allowed me to understand the core principles, and now that I’ve connected two old HDDs I formatted them with fdisk in Konsole. And I haven’t used any GUI to install anything in a couple of weeks now ^^’
As far as I was concerned (single-user so not a huge sample), GUI & Terminal aren’t opposites but quite complementary ^^)
Thank you. I feel validated - one of my favourite workflows is using Dolphin, hitting F4 to pull up the Konsole pane, and using THAT to do my navigating (and many other tasks) when I’m lazy to reach for the mouse.
What’s more amazing - if you open something in Kate, let’s see - maybe something in your ~/.config folder - then you want to do something else?
In Kate, you can also hit F4 to pull up a Konsole pane, and use the terminal…
Synergy like this makes me soar.
Further investigation - install zoxide (z to jump, zi to select, with fuzzy matching), fzf, yazi… let the party continue.
Political agenda commits in any application for a distribution should be avoided at all costs. Remain neutral. I maintain over 200 CachyOS installations. My clients also can not have anything politically embedded for which can open them up to lawsuits from clients, employees or the like. So now I am busy starting to migrate to a neutral distribution. This is nothing towards any one. But again, a GUI OS Updater should be just that, no BS political integration. Again this minimal post I did earlier, was not to create any popcorn moment, hence my limited involvement to isolate or offend others. I fully support anyone elses viewpoints or lifestyle without any issue. The issue is what I had mentioned above. Please be respectful, give proper feedback and please stay away from hateful comments or making snide assumptions. Thank you.
A Pride button signals support for LGBTQ+ visibility.
Omitting it also signals something: that the maintainers either don’t care about that visibility or actively avoid it to cater to other sensitivities.
True neutrality is impossible; the real question is which values the project chooses to prioritise .
CachyOS, like most community‑driven distros, reflects the views of its contributors.
If those contributors see celebrating Pride as a positive gesture of inclusivity, that’s a legitimate design decision – not an “agenda” any more than a Christmas theme would be.
Client Lawsuits
Framing it now as a practical concern - I can’t imagine any jurisdiction that would create any liability. Your suggestion that a Pride button could open you up to lawsuits is frankly a huge surprise to me - and if that’s enough to persuade you to migrate to a fascist distribution which would deliberately omit Pride Month then I would simply be careful not to slam your fingers in the door on your way out.
I see it in my Banking applications, I see it everywhere… so shutting it out is a massive political statement in my opinion… and I cannot help but feel distaste for anyone who would complain.
The message is HIDDEN behind a button… not thrust in your face.
I support the horrible brightly coloured button 1000% - just in case you were wondering - and I’m a boringly normal CIS male.
A more constructive approach would be to request an opt‑out mechanism rather than demanding removal for everyone.
Again, being inclusive to one type while offending/ignoring others is not neutral. Forcing ones beliefs onto another is also not neutral. I could care less what your gender or pronouns would be/are. It is irrelevant when remaining neutral. If that is what the community wants, fine put a disclaimer then. Then we don’t have to do what I have been doing the past few days.
I wish CachyOS well in their in devours. I will now be parting ways after years of support, deployment and recommendations.
Do you somehow think that viewing a rainbow flag will turn you queer?
Or that issuing an ultimatum that others can’t display or view such a flag within their community domains is not the actual attempt to force beliefs onto others here?
Calling a gay male a ‘queer’ is highly offensive and derogatory language and should not be tolerated anywhere.. But I see no logic in your arguments, just hate, dismay, nonsense and overall vulgar language. Perhaps read the label than assuming you know whats in it. You probably even lost in your hatred that my only issue with Shelly is not remaining neutral in any political spectrum and do what the program is suppose to be a GUI Based OS updater. Perhaps learn how to communicate with someone without using obscene language to provide a better discussion. I will comment no more on this topic. Thank you.
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